Interview By: Francesca Djerejian

Anyone familiar with Big L’s musical catalogue has come across numerous tales of 1-3-9 and Lennox, the block that he immortalized along with his Harlem crew, Children of the Corn.  Growing up on the same block as L, Herb “McGruff” Brown supported his childhood friend’s entry into the rap game as a hypeman, and with L’s encouragement developed into one of Harlem’s finest emcees.  Together with Big L, Murda Ma$e and Killa Cam, Gruff the crime dog repped Harlem’s grimiest streets and dreamt about the fortune and fame in forgotten classics such as “Danger Zone (Uptown Connection)” and “American Dream.” Nine years after the death of his childhood friend, the C.O.C. veteran reminisces about Big L’s Harlem legacy, incomparable lyricism, and most of all his unforgettable sense of humor. 

BigLOnline: How have you been?

McGruff: I’ve been chilling.

BigLOnline: When did you and L first become friends?

McGruff: Well we came up on the same block so we grew up together, we were childhood buddies before the rap, before anything, I been knew L. That was my friend.

BigLOnline: Before he formed Children of the Corn, what were you guys getting into?

McGruff: We used to rap in the park, but we really wasn’t taking it serious. We just was doing it to do it, because that was the thing to do back then I guess. It was me, L, Cam Ma$e and Black Rob used to come through sometimes, and we were rhyming in the park and stuff. But we ain’t never think that it was going to get like how it got. And me and L came up under Lovebug Starski, he used to be around the way and people like that, that influenced us. It was already around us, the music, but we just never took it serious until L got discovered by Lord Finesse. And ever since then, we started taking it serious, we started doing mixtapes, so on and so on. But me and L we childhood friends, before the rap, before everything.

BigLOnline: There are stories about how you guys were really grinding, recording in people’s bathrooms and selling mixtapes out the trunk, what were those days like?

McGruff: Those were the grimy days, we was building the foundation. We saw pictures and we just went with it, we knew something could happen. L, he basically broke the doors down for Harlem. I know and respected Rob Base and Doug E. Fresh and all them, but L? He was that new generation. He broke the doors down and made it possible for a lot of us, such as myself. He was a true lyricist.

BigLOnline: Is he the one who convinced you to get in the game seriously?

McGruff: Exactly. Like I was L’s hypeman when he was on tour, I wasn’t even really rapping back then.  That was my man, he on, I just was going with the punches. Then I started writing, and eventually being around certain people, it rubbed off. I said, “Shit, I can do it too!” Me and L go way back, I remember when Biggie… we was doing the Jack the Rapper tour,  this was before the Fugees got big, Biggie, everybody, MC Eiht from the west coast, it was all love.  I think we was in San Diego, I was his hype, man he was doing shows, promotional tours.

BigLOnline: How tight was C.OC. as a crew?

McGruff: We was real tight, but me and L was the tightest cause we was from the same block.

BigLOnline: 139 and Lennox?

McGruff: That’s right, the Danger Zone. 

BigLOnline: You guys built up a real story behind that block, what was it like back in those days?

McGruff: It wasn’t easy, it was rough. Every night gunshots, but that’s where we lived, that’s how we had to come up. So we wanted out of that. That’s why we started to rhyme, to do something positive. You get tired of living the same lifestyle. After L did it, we was grinding hard like you said in peoples houses’ studios, just grinding it out, seeing what we could make of it.

BigLOnline: What was the whole NFL crew?

McGruff: That was like the block.  That was like 139 & Lennox.

BigLOnline: Were you still involved in the streets when the C.O.C. thing was happening?

McGruff: Oh yeah, I was and then I changed my life. Like I said I was going on promotional tours with L, seeing other places, learning that the life was bigger than the block. It was a big world out there, we could do something positive, give people from the block jobs that don’t got jobs. We just was trying to do something positive cause the environment that we come from, it’s really hard to come out of that. So you know at that time I was, but that was the past. You had to do what you had to do.

BigLOnline: Would you say that Big L was caught up in the streets at all?

McGruff: You know it is what it is, this the environment we came up in. So you know, I wouldn’t say caught up. What else you gonna do? That’s all we knew, the block.

BigLOnline: What was he like as a friend?

McGruff: L… comedian, competitor, sore loser [laughs].  I remember one time I beat L… we used to play checkers and this card game called Casino. I think I beat L about 4, 5 times in a row. He stopped speaking with me for a week [laughs]. He hated to lose, he wanted to be the best in everything, but that was my boy though.

BigLOnline: Did you get the sense that he was about to blow?

McGruff: I knew he was about to blow.  It was no and ifs ands buts or maybes, that “Flamboyant,” [and] after that joint, “Ebonics,” and all that, that was it was right there. Matter fact, me and him was supposed to do something with Roc-a-Fella but due to the fact that the tragedy happened, it didn’t ever go down.

BigLOnline: That was the Wolfpack, with you, L, C-Town and Jay Z?

McGruff: Yeah, we had a lot of big plans going on, but that tragedy happened. That put a monkey wrench in everything.

BigLOnline: Is it true that Dame was hesitating to sign the rest of you guys, and Big L was trying to get the rest of the group signed?

McGruff: Nah he wasn’t hesitating, Dame and L was always cool, me and Dame was always cool. He wanted to sign both of us, he said thought it’d be in our best interest [to start as a group] and then eventually we could do whatever. ‘Cause we was the two hardest names coming out of Harlem that’s reppin. So he was going to sign us we were gonna do the group thing but that never occurred due to the fact, the tragedy.

BigLOnline: What was going on with C.O.C. after Cam and Ma$e went to play ball and Bloodshed died, was the unity falling apart?

McGruff: I mean we always was cool we just grew up we was young in the game you gotta realize we were young, 17, 18 we didn’t really know the game like that we were just excited to be a part of it. So as you get older the business part of the game come in you get older you start doing grown man stuff you gotta pay bills, all type of stuff so I guess people start thinking different but you know I still got love for all of them

BigLOnline: So do you still talk to Cam?

McGruff: Yeah I still talk to Cam. I could reach out to talk to Cam any time I want. It’s just when I call him, I want something to talk about, on a business proposition.

BigLOnline: Do you look back like those were the golden days?

McGruff: Yeah it was, ‘cause it was fun. We was young, coming up, doing something that we all liked. They said rap wasn’t supposed to be here, rap was dying out. It was around that time and we just was coming with it, trying to get in where you fit in. But as I said, when you get older you start making different decisions. People tend to shy away, it don’t be that we don’t want to hang with each other no more.  It’s just that you be so busy and he be so busy, its hard to crash heads sometimes. But everybody doing what they  got to do Ma$e doing what he gotta do, Cam doing what he gotta do, and I wish everybody well. 

BigLOnline: What do you think Big L would have thought of the Harlem rap scene today?

McGruff: Rap Today it aint really no unity if we all was gonna get together and support each other like how the South doing it they all stick together. Even though it might be some stuff going on behind scenes but they don’t let that be known.  Everybody stick together. You doing a video? everybody come support them and vice versa that’s how they wilnning right now to tell the truth the South is killing it. Nothing coming out of McGruff: Right now, New York is on life support for real. 50 probably… nobody selling no records, the game is crazy. Everybody downloading, it’s crazy so the game is under siege right now, the game on life support.

BigLOnline: Do you think not enough people know about C.O.C. and what you guys did for Harlem?

McGruff: Everybody know who C.O.C. is, the real hip hop fans know what time it is. I guess some of the young kids that are coming out now, they on the “Superman” and all that, they don’t really know what’s going on. But people from that era, they know who C.O.C. is, they know Gruff, Ma$e, Cam, Big L. I’m just proud to be a part of that.

BigLOnline: What was L like in the booth?

McGruff: L was a beast in the booth, he would memorize…Like he showed me a way, it’s called “compounding,” when two words come together he showed me that stuff. ‘Cause Kane, Rakim and them [had developed the technique]… I’m like, “What you talking about, compounding?” he was like “Yo,  two words go together and you keep catching two words that go with each other that make sense,” he had a method to how he would write all his stuff and he mastered that joint. L was a lyricist for real, for real. I still say he the best to come out of Harlem, foreal. L was nasty in that booth, punchlines, all that, he had the whole package. I miss the hell out of him too, L was a comedian, all he wanted to do was snap all day, yo.

BigLOnline: You could hear in the records that he was a comedian…

McGruff: Yeah L was a comedian. He knew all the black man, white man, chinese jokes. He used to have us crying, L was funny.  All day all he wanted to do all day was joke. Joke and laugh all day, that was my boy man, word up.

BigLOnline: Did he have that superstar quality about him, when he was on the verge?

McGruff: L been into the music from back in the day with Starski. L was been into the music scene, L used to be trying to DJ back in the day too. I miss L, yo. L was a straight up comedian for real. Right now he would be trying to snap, b, tryna find something to snap about, I miss him.

BigLOnline: You heard that his mother just died…?

McGruff: Yeah you took the words out my mouth, they buried her on the 16th and it’s crazy ‘cause the tragedy happened on the 15th and his mother got laid to rest on the 16th. It just is crazy, I don’t know, I guess they together now in a better place.  I remember when L’s mother Pinky, her real name is Gilda but everybody called her Pinky, she used to take us on bus rides back in the day to Great Adventure, Action Park.  I got a lot of memories b, word up.

BigLOnline: I remember that skit you have where you’re talking local spots in Harlem…

McGruff: Cause some of the people that own the joints acting funny, and we feel like “Yo we from Harlem, so how you gonna act funny with us?” It ain’t like we from Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens. We go to Brooklyn, Queens and get more love than some of the places in Harlem.

BigLOnline: You guys must of gotten mad love in Harlem though…

McGruff: We got mad love in Harlem, word up. But certain little spots that every now and then, they used to be feeling theyself you know?  But it’s all love.

BigLOnline: What are you involved in now?

McGruff: I’m still trying to do some music. I just put out a mixtape recently with his guy named Hunc, getting my ears wet [with my group] LCN.  I got some DVD footage, they just did a [Big L] tribute at Limelight a couple years ago with Lord Finesse, I got footage from all that, we gonna put that on there. But basically I got some artists right now and I’m trying to work them, ‘cause I ain’t trying to rap my whole life. I’m gonna see how the CEO side of it works out, I’ma put something else out just to see people’s reaction.

BigLOnline: Is there anything more you want to say about L?